The Ayahuasca Sessions: An Interview with Ron Wheelock


Rak Razam

Date of original publication

April 5, 2013


This interview on ayahuasca is from the book: The Ayahuasca Sessions: Conversations with Amazonian Curanderos and Western Shamans, available from North Atlantic Books (2014)

Ron Wheelock is an Iquitos-based shaman from the Midwest United States who trained for many years with indigenous curanderos in Peru. Ron was called by the spirit of ayahuasca to do his healing work and in many ways he epitomises the new breed of Western shamans following indigenous wisdom. Here Ron discusses how he got involved with ayahuasca and was called on the path of shamanism, his experiences with DMT, the spirit world and treating Western ayahuasca seekers…

Rak: Ron, can we just backtrack a bit and talk about your preparation of ayahuasca here and what you’re doing.

Ron: Sure. I had some ayahuasca that had got accidentally cut by some other people. And then I went and harvested another vine very early this morning. It’s best to harvest it very early because the harmaline content is higher. So then I harvested my leaves… this is chiric sanango … these are leaves of chagraponga

Could you just explain what’s in each plant here?

In the chagraponga is 5-MEO-DMT. And Don Jose [his teacher], I didn’t know for many years, had one trunk of yage chacruna… I never knew him to work with it. So this morning I also went to it to harvest it, the leaves. So this [brew] has chagraponga, which I call wambisa, which contains 5-MEO-DMT; it has the psychotria viridis, which contains N-N-DMT, and I always use three flowers, if I have flowers, of toé [datura]… Today I used two pink, one white, and since the leafcutter ants stripped so many leaves off my toé last night, I added an extra two leaves also. And I also put leaves of chiric sanango, which I find usually gives much clearer vision.

It’s really a science, isn’t it? It’s a chemical concoction, a science of what you mix with what and what’s in what.

Alchemy. Alchemy, yeah, it’s early science. You’re mixing alkaloids from various plants. And before I use the pot I blow smoke on the pot, I blow smoke on the [chopping] board, on my hammer, everything. And any bad energy that’s laying around and has accumulated, it gets rid of that. It clears the space – that’s a very important part of the work, also. Just like in the ceremony.

Different cultures work different. Like the Shuar — they don’t smoke no tobacco. But they use tobacco snuffs and the ampidea, which is tobacco cooked down like a tar. But for me I find, and the way I was taught, tobacco is a very important part of the work. I will also put tobacco in the ayahuasca. For me tobacco is our very first sacred plant. Everything starts and finishes with tobacco. So when we do a ceremony the first thing I always do is blow smoke on everything, all my tools, to bless them and clean ‘em up.

I’ve heard there’s different types of ayahuasca. It’s almost putting a label on them but there’s black ayahuasca, sky-heaven, thunder…

Yeah, I’ve heard there’s as many as 12 or 15 varieties of ayahuasca. I have personally drank four different types. I have six types growing on my property. I’ve got sky ayahuasca, that’s what’s growing here, most of it. When I finish the pot I’ll take you round and show you all the different varieties. I have black ayahuasca, which most people call yana ayahuasca, yana is Quechua for black; I have warmi ayahuasca, that’s Quechua for woman; I also recently planted yana puma ayahuasca in the supray chacra [the plot of land left to grow wild] – black panther ayahuasca, and boa ayahuasca. And I do have some thunder ayahuasca but it’s not growing very well, I don’t know why.

So do you find each variety of ayahuasca takes you to, y’know, a different room in the heavenly mansion?

Yeah. Every one has its own special effect. Like the warmi ayahuasca, it don’t really ever get very big. I mean this size here, about as big as your finger, that’s about as big as it ever gets. And the first time I ever got some they just give me a small portion… it was like my little extra bonus for what I bought. So I prepared it in a small pot by itself. And I had about a litre. I didn’t take it to the States cause I thought, ah, it’s awfully small ayahuasca and it probably won’t do anything. It probably don’t have any strength to it.I got home, I drank it — oh ya yai! Completely different. Very strange visions, everything was completely geometrical. Triangles that would just come and they would just split — chaa! chaa! chaa chaa chaa.

The dance…

And it was very hard to sing my songs, everything was just mixed up in my head… I found it very difficult to work with, but after I worked with it a while I found it very interesting. And most of the people I drank it with said the same thing – it really scrambled their brains.

Ron, it sounds like you’re well versed in the varieties of the medicine, you’re not just a ‘casual’ shaman. It’s not just some tourist trapping, you’ve really immersed yourself in the lifestyle and the science [of ayahuasca] and the path.

Yeah. I really have. I mean… I’ve met an lot of tourists here that come and experiment, and kinda dabble in this work. And some of them want to come here and teach their ways and stuff… I’ve come here to learn their ways [the indigenous ways]. And now that I’ve been here a while I pick some of our Western culture ways and add to it. In my construction and some of it. And some of my ideas, even in my preparation of ayahuasca… I use pretty much all their ideas. And working with the plants. I don’t… I haven’t tried to alter that much. In my lifestyle here and the way I live I see things that can be improved. And I also know that I have things to teach these people, too. All cultures have something to offer. So life is very interesting…here.

Ron how did you end up here [in Iquitos]. What’s your story? What brought you to the path of ayahuasca?

Ah, I was into Native American culture all my life. And then I read Carlos Castenada’s books, which really sparked an interest. And in 1996 I had paid my home off. And I told many of my friends that one of these days I’m gonna take off to the Rocky Mountains and find an old Indian shaman, and maybe he will teach me his secrets.

Well then someone brought me a copy of Shaman’s Drum, and I saw Journeys to the Rainforest, and I thought, hmmm, I never really thought about goin’ to the rainforest. And I’d like to know the place. And I came here and when I met Don Agustin it was like I’d found my Don Juan, the first time, at the gate.

And who’s Don Agustin?

He’s a very well known ayahuasquero curandero from Tamshiyacu. He’s 73 now. And when I went there to his camp he told me about my life. When it came my turn to explain who I was and what I was doing here, he told me about my life, and I was like, how does he know this? I’ve never told anyone in the group much about me. And we really made a great connection. And I worked with him for about four or five years. After about a year and a half I also started working with Don Jose Corral, Eduardo Luna’s teacher. He lived over here [near Ron’s home] and in this area for 30, 40 years, and recently went to the nursing home.

But as I furthered my work with ayahuasca, ayahuasca told me that it was no chance that I just came here on my own. She knew me before my birth and she brought me here because she had a lot to teach me. And it’s not been an easy path to follow. Many times I’ve wanted to throw the towel in and give it up. But I know deep in my heart that if I do that there’s a very hard consequence to pay. I’d just only have to come back and come through all this again. I know we’re not just here one time on this earth. We make many trips here. There’s no way we could learn everything in one lifetime.

I’ve heard you say that ayahuasca talks to you and guides you. You’ve said it said things like it’s time to get out of America and base yourself here [in Iquitos], don’t do this, or even don’t charge money, just by donation from the spirit. Could you explain your relationship with [ayahuasca] in regards to that?

Well in my very first plant diet when I came back here in November of ‘96 to really immerse myself in this work, we did a seven day diet in separate little wooden huts. I didn’t eat anything for five days because everything was so bland. But after five days I could just tap into the energy of the plants. And when I finished the diet that night ayahuasca came to me and talked to me. She started explaining all the work she had for me, and I was like, this is crazy. No one person could do this. Never to charge for my work. God put everything on this planet for everyone, not just people with money. And usually the poor people need it more than the people with money.

And I talked to the group leader about that, and she said that’s very beautiful, Ron. But you’ll starve to death. People will not give you tips. Well to date it has worked very good. But as I keep working she teaches me. And when I moved here things happened in my life, and I’m like, yeah, I hear ya. It’s time for me to devote my whole life to this work. Which I have done now. And I just ask God to provide me with a living, no more, no less. So I don’t have to go hungry and I have a roof over my head. All the rest is extra. And it’s far exceeded that. For five years I’ve taken ayahuasca to the States and worked coast to coast.

And then recently ayahuasca’s told me not to take ayahuasca to the States anymore. I need to raise my son [Queto, who’s three]. And I’d lived here previous, but there was no way I could make a living here.

I mean I get some local people to drink with me, five soles they give me, other people come maybe ten, fifty soles. But I came back in January and I’ve had a pretty solid flow of foreigners come in and work with me so I can sustain my life here.

Do you think that the times are changing, that there’s a wave building, that there are more gringos interested in ayahuasca and they’re coming to Peru? And maybe the work you [and others] have done in America has stirred up interest as well?

Sure. It all works together. I mean it’s planting seeds in people’s minds to wake people up. And even though I probably won’t do much work in the States anymore, it’s not the whole world. I recently had a friend to refer me to someone I met in Denmark who may be soon wanting me to come to Denmark. And after the conference [The second Amazon Shamanism Conference] I met a guy in Belen — I hadn’t even seen him at the conference — and he’s from Cambodia and he’s invited me to Cambodia.

It’s global, huh? The global seeds.

It’s global. I see ayahuasca as all vines. The vine it starts growing on something and it just starts trying to take over everything. And ayahuasca is also a vine. And through us, every ayahuasquero, we’re like another limb on the vine. And she’s trying to embrace the world.

And like the guy in Cambodia, I gave him many cuttings to take the plant in Cambodia, and it should grow very well there. The chagropanga he took, so I’d be very interested to see if he got there with it and how it grows. I know people who grow it in various parts of the United States, in Florida, in California, anywhere it doesn’t get below freezing it will grow.

Could you explain how you integrate [shamanism] into your life here with your son. In the West we seem to have the wrong perspective on it, that we try to protect our children from the truth, almost.

Here I just try and let my son grow on his own. I mean I guide him, it’s a modern world and he can’t just be a complete savage.

Could you just say his name and age?

His name’s (Queto). Quetzalcoatl Luis Wheelock Angulo. And he’s three-and-a-half. And he already knows a lot about the plants. Even this morning he was in the pots, singing “ayahuasca”… Some people in the States when I worked with him at my side were a little uncomfortable. They didn’t think we should be doing drugs in front of children. But these are not drugs. This is medicine. These are plants that grow around us all the time. So I just… being from the Western culture I have to give up a lot of things. But still a lot of them are with me. There’s things I want to correct him to do but I know it’s alright for him to do it. And I know there’s many spirits that protect him.

There’s times like when he plays under the house that I don’t like him to do that because at times there’s tarantulas and at times there’s snakes and it’s dangerous. So I try and make him aware of those things. And even through drinking ayahuasca helps him to learn about those things, because it teaches.

So he’s drunk ayahuasca?

He’s drunk six times. We gave him about a teaspoon full the other night in Tamshiyacu. Because I’ve been having little behavioral problems with him and he’s always much better afterwards … He tells me he sees things. But he don’t express what he sees. And since he’s learning two languages it’s taking him a little bit longer to learn how to talk. But every day a little more. I’ve had a lot of eating problems with his because he was raised bad through his mother and his grandparents. Too many sweets and sugars, so I’m trying to break them habits. And I think by giving him ayahuasca periodically it could be a big step in that direction, because it changes the way we think and the way we act.

I mean, I’m still the same person I always was. But I’ve changed a lot, and when I go back and visit my old friends that I’ve been around for most of my life [in Kansas], I just don’t resonate good with ‘em. I can visit ‘em, but after a short while I wanna go. They’re still in the same place, they haven’t changed. And some of ‘em’s been judgemental to me, like Ron, you’ve changed so much. Do you not remember where you came from? And yes I remember very well where I came from.

Where are you from?

I grew up in the Midwest in the States. Kansas, Missouri. I mean, I was even raised very prejudiced. I don’t like prejudice… I was raised a Baptist. So I don’t know… I don’t think my religion even comes very much from the Church. It really comes from my heart. Because I never really read the Bible plum through. But it seems like I pretty well know what’s in it, without reading it. So…

You were talking before about the planetary seeds and ayahuasca taking root. I think it’s perfectly synchronistic that you’ve come from the heartland of America, y’know, you’re like the ‘American Shaman’ come to the heartland of Peru…

Y’know I meet [other Americans] … like Alan [Shoemaker] for example. Yeah he’s on his path but he don’t do exactly like I do. He’s a businessman, also. I could be a businessman real easy if I wanted to be. But I don’t pursue that path. I find it very draining on my energy. I need a certain amount of money to live and I don’t like to advertise my work, I like the word of mouth. I let ayahuasca do the work. She brings me all my clients. And she can take ‘em away. If I don’t do diets she starts taking work away from me.

Do you think it’s like a relationship with ayahuasca?

Very much. I’ve been married, and sometimes it’s very much like a love-hate relationship. I mean I could sit here and tell you all day about the good things about ayahuasca, and y’know, go “let’s drink tonight”. And really it gets right down to the very moment you drink and I could just as easy say let’s eat ice-cream and forget this! (laughs)…

And many times I make that remark and people take me to their place and they want me to drink two or three days together, and then they’ll go… but I don’t want to drink tonight. Well you brought me here and you want me to drink every night. You need to drink with me. If you don’t drink then we’re going to just eat Ben & Jerry’s ice-cream tonight (laughs).

Well… I guess I’ll drink then. Good, then I’ll drink. I mean, I still tell people the hardest part is from my hand to my mouth. I have to make my hand give it to me. And I never know when I drink what’s going to happen. I think that’s one thing that keeps me very interested in it.

With a drug, I mean you pretty much know every time, once you’ve done it a few times, what’s going to happen. Even smoking the DMT, it’s very predictable. It’s almost the same thing every time, pretty much. It’s pretty close, it don’t vary very much. But with ayahuasca I never have any idea what may happen. Maybe nothing, maybe…

Do you think it is because DMT’s part of ayahuasca…?

Yeah, and it’s a part of us.

DMT’s pretty much replicable and ayahuasca’s different every time. Why is the spirit of ayahuasca so mercurial when the spirit of DMT is… It’s almost like ayahuasca’s the staircase and DMT is the spirit going up the staircase…. Could you maybe explain the difference, why those two are different?

Well that’s one reason why in the future I want to do some extractions with plants. To see if that still holds true. Because the DMT I’ve worked with was made in a laboratory. so maybe that’s why, y’know, it’s synthetically made, why it’s the same every time. Maybe with the actual plant material there will be more spirit.

With the N,N-DMT?

With both, with the 5-MEO-DMT and the N,N-DMT. In the future I want to get to a point where I can do some experimenting with that and see. Now I’ve never done the snuff that they blow up their nose. But most of those are 5-MEO-DMT’s. And I have seen many documentaries where the indigenous people do it. And it seems like it’s probably very much similar to smoking DMT. It seems like the onsets really quick and the people that work with it do some really strange things. Start dancing or making real loud, gutteral sounds. Snot running out their nose.

How old are you now, Ron? And do you think you’re going to make it to like, 120 and then transform into the Dreaming…??

How old am I now? I’m 51. I think I’ll make a 100 pretty easy. For most of my younger life… The men in my dad’s side of the family died very young. My father included – 58 years old he died. Two brothers died in their mid-60s, all of the same cancer – pancreatic cancer. So that’s also a big reason I drink ayahuasca, for my health. I don’t want to die young.

I received a healing on my liver one time with ayahuasca. I had come here and I brought a group for Don Agustin. And always with him we drank ojé first. Which is a resin from the rubber tree. A very powerful purgative, it kills all parasites in your body. It’s half a day shitting and puking. Pretty intense. And any time we’d have a ceremony, any kind of work we’d do with Don Agustin, the next day we’d have a reunion and share our experiences.

So about half way through our reunion Don Agustin says, Ron has a problem with his pancreas. Well my first brother had just died a few weeks before with this pancreatic cancer. Talk about hitting a nail on it’s head. So I explained that my father and my brother had died from pancreatic cancer and he said don’t worry.The plants are healing you.

And in our fourth ceremony… aye ai ai… For the first couple of years it was really rough on me. I mean, I purged violently. I would vomit six, seven, eight times, shit six, seven, eight times… Jesus Christ I can’t be dropping nothing more out of me now… BLLLUUURRRHHAA… Aye yai yai… And part of that was from my years of drug use. Took some years to put that in me, took some time to clean it up. You don’t just clean it up in one night.

So… in the last ceremony it was very violent… And uh, a great doctor came in my visions. He took my liver out from my left side… and I know my liver’s over here… A very, very painful experience, how I wanted to cry, scream… And then he had it and he worked on my liver with diamonds, rubies, all these precious stones. Seemed like anywhere between, I dunno, ten, twenty minutes. And then he put it back in. Another very painful experience.

For over a year I had had a discomfort here in my solar plexus. So we put it back in… another painful experience. I’d had this discomfort here for over a year. And when I would drink other medicines in the morning – coffee, tea — thirty minutes to an hour later I would throw up. So the next morning after that ceremony I got up and it was like, wow, it’s not there no more. Now I drink medicines, coffees, teas all normal and they don’t make me throw up. So I know I received a healing on my liver. And many times, even though we’re healers… a lot of times with ayahuasca we don’t actually have to do the healing.

Really, all we do sometimes is I had a very sick person here one night, and about half way through the ceremony — his wife didn’t drink, and I’d worked on her before and healed her, that’s how I met him. And she says, Ron, my husband says he feels like he’s going to die. I’m pretty concerned. Well the ayahuasca had pretty much wore off, so I was not in too much of an altered state. So I said I would smoke DMT and work on him. I come outside to use the bathroom…

So I smoke, to raise up my energy. So while I was outside I was really not up to smoking that night. So I prayed to God, please God, send someone to heal him so I don’t have to smoke. So I got back inside and got ready to start working on him and he’s like… Ron. An old, old woman came to me and healed me while you were outside. And I was like, thank you, God, you heard me. You do listen (laughs).

And I’ve even sat in God’s house… One time in Northern California one night I was playing my drum with my shacapa till all the leaves had fallen off… It was just the stems. But while I was playing it these vines of ayahuasca just dropped out of the sky and carried me right up into Heaven, where I sat in God’s house. It was so bright I couldn’t hardly look at anything. It was just blinding it was so bright. And then when it let me down I was here at home. My guardian was in bed and I went over and shook his shoulder. I looked around the house, came outside and visited my plants. Took off walking in the jungle.

And I asked the guardian when I came back, I says when I was done working in the States with ayahuasca did you ever have any strange experiences? He’d never, to date he’s never drank ayahuasca. And he said yeah, one night I was here and I felt somebody shake me. And I went outside and it felt like someone was here, but I went outside and looked around but I couldn’t find nobody. And I said hmmmpph… interesting. I didn’t tell him any more, because a lot of the things ayahuasca teaches us is secrets. And if you tell ‘em to everybody they’re no longer secrets.

Ayahuasca can be very tempermental, different for everyone who takes it, can’t it?

Sure… I’ve had people coming in… And some of the people would be whooah… super powerful experiences and others it don’t even make ‘em purge. Nothing happens.I think that’s just ayahuasca… I mean I like to tell people if you didn’t have visions the first time you still had medicine, it’s still working in your body. But you’re not ready for it. It’s preparing you. Because I’ve seen many times with like groups, I mean a lot of people come here and just drink once or twice and go.

Or like in the States people might get just one opportunity to get to drink with me and then it’s six months or a year before they get another chance. But I’ve seen people come here and stay for two weeks and drink a couple of times and maybe just purge purge purge. And they’re like, I really don’t care if I drink that stuff anymore all it does is make me shit and puke. Not a very pleasant experience. And then by their third or fourth time they usually have really beautiful visions. So it’s just the ayahuasca preparing ‘em for the experience.

When I first started my work I didn’t know many songs. And ayahuasca was very strong here and I’d take it back [to the States] and it wouldn’t be very strong there. But then as I learned more songs and did more diets and got more energy… I mean, I carry the jungle in my body. The plants that I do diets with, they live in my body. So that’s why we say that the strength of the ayahuasca depends on the strength of the ayahuasquero, many times. Someone who’s not done diets and will just buy ayahuasca and take it home with them and drink, it’s a very good possibility it won’t do nothing to ‘em.

But if you keep drinking it and if ayahuasca sees you’re very sincere in your work, she’ll start teaching you. It’s like she’s got to test you sometimes. She don’t turn her secrets loose for free. We have to suffer, so that’s a lot of it right there. But if she really wants you, maybe the very first time she’ll give you really beautiful visions, I mean my very first time I had very beautiful visions.

And even like my ayahuasca that I cook… I don’t know how many times y’all have drunk ayahuasca, but y’know, it’s not a very good taste. Pretty nasty. Mine is actually almost sickeningly sweet. I mean I’ve had other ayahuasqueros come drink with me and they’re like, what do you put in your ayahuasca, Ron? It’s sweet! I use the same things you do. Then ayahuasca must really want you because you’re ayahuasca’s really sweet. Even Don Agustin, we drank the other night and he was like, this ayahuasca’s very sweet. All the people were dieting and he said this’ll be the only thing sweet in the diet — the ayahuasca. It was not sweet.

Now Don Jose used to put sugarcane in his. But I’ve never put anything sweet in. I think part of it is the chagraponga, the wambisa chacruna is a little bit sweeter than the other. Or that’s kinda my theory, anyway. Or maybe it’s just because it wants me. Because many use the chagraponga and it’s not always sweet, either. It’s a very interesting plant — it’s like a great library. But the real teachers are the big trees. That’s why we do diets with tree barks and resins from the big trees. But with the big trees we’re not able to fly. They come to us, the teach us. With ayahuasca, we’re able to fly.

And why do you think they’re interested in us monkeys? I mean I know we’re out of control, but doesn’t the earth just wipe the board and get rid of the problem? Why are they so giving to us?

In my opinion we’re caretakers of the Earth. They need us. This I’ve even seen in my ayahuasca visions, y’know. Many of us are very concerned about the earth changes… the Mayan calendar. I think even the government’s concerned about that. I mean my extent of the mail is usually Yahoo when I check my mail and I check the headlines and if there’s something that’s not too long that may be of interest to me, I’ll read it.

Well not too long back there was a deal where Bill Clinton attended environmental meetings in Canada [the Kyoto Accord]. And he reported for the States that our government is not very concerned about doing anything about the environment. But possibly after 2012 we might consider something. Why choose that date if they don’t think something’s going to happen? I’m sure they’re making preparations for that date for something that’s going to happen.

I think it’s going to be a very interesting time. I think something will happen then. I mean we’ve had many wakeup calls here recently. The tsunami in Asia — 250,000 people — whooossssshh! Gone with one sweep of a hand. The war can’t even do that. And 9/11 and we forgot all that already.

Do you think if people resonate on the right frequency and tune back into the planet, that the planet won’t attack the problem in those areas, the blockage in the planetary chakras?

Well, I mean, I don’t know. I don’t think so. What I have seen with ayahuasca — we’re all doing exactly what we need to do, subconsciously. We’re not aware that we’re doing these things. Sucking all the petroleum out of the earth. The earth needs us to do that to bring forward all the earth changes. She can’t do these things on her own. To bring this toxic thing over here and mix it over here – she can’t do that. She needs us.

And how can we be polluting the earth? Everything on this earth is from this earth. It’s not like aliens come down here and dumped their shit on us. Everything’s from here. I mean yeah, I get all upset about the villagers throwing all their trash around. It’s just an eyesore. But really it’s all from this earth. I think all these things that we’re doing are going to bring forth the earth changes when they come. But we all know that the earth changes periodically, about 25,000 years. Majorchanges like the Ice Age and it will continue to.

Anybody that’s done much work with ayahuasca will tell you – we don’t choose to work with ayahuasca. She chooses us. There’s hallucinogenic plants all over the face of the earth. Peyote, San Pedro, Syrian Rue, Opium… I see these plants selecting the caretakers. The teachers. That when the earth change comes, many, many people are going to die. Many people. But the human race will not vanish.

Well, there’s a chance the at least some of human race will vanish, and become post-human, more than human…

Ehh, yeah, well we say that with the ayahuasca it’s changing our DNA. And I believe that’s true. These plants are changing us and preparing us for the changes so we will be ready. I think it’s all part of the scheme of things. Evolution is always at work.

We’ll still be us on the other side. We’ll just be different. Ron you’ve had some out of body and near-death or even death experiences on ayahuasca. Could you tell us a bit about those?

Well, I physically died on ayahuasca one night for maybe 20 minutes. It was right after 9/11 and I went to the guy I know that works in the Library of Congress. I sang four or five songs and we drank outside on the deck. I needed to use the bathroom but I couldn’t find the stairways to get down. I stood up and said oh my god, can someone help me find the stairways. So somebody’s wife, who didn’t drink, helped me to find the stairway. I walked away about 20 or 30 feet. I pulled my pants down to shit… and I fell over dead.

The next thing I’m standing beside my body… nothing psychedelic…everything just as clear as now. I looked – and there was my body. Shit and puke all around me. And I look over and there’s all my clients on the deck. I looked at my sides and there were many of my dead friends, just the way I remembered ‘em, standing there looking at me. Why are you people here? You guys have been dead for a long time. Yes, Ron. So are you. Ay ai ai… it’s true. All my years experimenting with drugs, plants. Now I went and done it. I’m dead. Well I guess I don’t got nothing left to worry about, do I?

Don Agustin came to me. He stood there, looking at me. At that time Don Jose and I was fighting over this land deal. So I’m like, where’s Don Jose, he’s also my teacher. He came to my side, reached into his pocket, threw something down and left. Well, he showed up, that’s the main thing. And then Don Agustin starts telling me to sing. Yeah, right, sing. I’m dead, how’re I going to sing? So this frog came over. And here come indigenous people with their pipes, and started blowing smoke on my body. And my spirit went back into my body. I crawled away about ten feet, and my bones, every bone in my body ached, like nothing I’ve ever experienced in my life. I was so cold, never have I felt cold like that. Rigormortis was setting in. Somebody came and checked on me — Ron, are you all right? Yeah, but I’m so cold, could you please bring a blanket or a coat? And they brought a coat to cover me.

I lay on the ground for a while… and finally crawled into the house, and layed down, and started singing these songs in other languages. My body filled up with a new energy and I worked really great with everyone. And even though it was a wonderful experience I still don’t quite know if I’m ready to experience that again. There’s a little fear there. Not much, but I know now that really part of a shaman’s work is traveling to the other side to bring knowledge back here. To die for short times. But I’ve talked to many other ayahasqueros and they said they’d never had an experience like that. So I don’t know.

In a similar way… when I went to the Smithsonian Institute… they’ve got a wonderful, wonderful museum. And I enjoyed all the precious stones. And as I’m walking around the museum observing all these precious stones, these stones start coming through me in other languages. And I started understanding things in other languages these stones are telling me: People have brought us here to observe our beauty, but they really don’t understand we’re very powerful. They’ve gathered us all up here and we’re waiting for the right time to release all of our energy, and we could not have done this without man’s help.

Planetary organism. It’s a collective.

Huge, huge crystals, I mean immaculate crystals and precious diamonds and all these precious stones. There’s quite a collection in the museum. And all of these possess tremendous amounts of energy. Not just beauty. Look at our radios to date — crystals. When I first started talking in tongues it came through a crystal. I had it in my hand and this language just started flowing through.

Deep networks, the mind of God…

DMT — crystals…