Alpha Memes: Entities, McKenna & Language


James Jesso

Date of original publication

September 17, 2014


So this episode isn't an interview but a conversation between myself, James Jesso and film producer and author Rak Razam. In September of 2014, I travelled, invited by Pulse Tours, Dan Cleland from Pulse Tours, to head to Peru and talk about mushrooms down there at Dan's retreat. While I was down there, I also chose to attend Rak's ayahuasca awakenings retreat, the first one he ran down at the Dios Ayahuasca Sanaciones with Percy Garcia. Now, if anyone has seen Rak's movie Ayahuasca Awakenings, then you'll be mildly familiar with Percy because he's someone who is talked about in the film.

Either way, I was there because I wasn't really too happy with ayahuasca culture. I'd had some experiences, and ultimately, I had left a very bad taste in my mouth, no pun intended, regarding the cultural and religious belief systems around Ayahuasca that I was seeing perpetrating through Western, the same Western culture that would say something along the lines of "I don't believe in religion" and "I don't believe in Christianity." Christianity" but would very quickly go to the church for an ayahuasca ceremony to praise and worship the great deity, known as Ayahuasca, who lives in the spirit realms and yada, yada, yada.

Now, I've released a lot of my cynicism around that, and we talk about this in this conversation, but I was in Peru because I wanted to know, I wanted to know, I guess, ultimately, what this was like in its homeland, what Ayahuasca offered. In the place where it is located, I would like to find an authentic traditional ceremony to see what it's like there.

Not that the authentic traditional ceremony is vital for a good experience or the quote unquote right experience, which isn't actually a thing, I imagine. It's just that I wanted to give that specific experience a try, like in a different context. However, I learned that there's really no such thing as an authentic or traditional ceremony anymore because everything has its own flavor and it doesn't really matter where you take it.

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Ultimately, it's the context in which you enter it, and that really, really brings forth what you'll get out of it, as well as obviously the dose and setting.

So anyways, we're in the jungle, Rak and I, and this particular retreat we're on has a plant dieta as a part of it. Now, it wasn't really full dieta where I wouldn't be seeing anyone for three months and barely eating because, yeah, we still got to see each other, and we had conversations, and we did workshops, but it was very little eating, very heavy dosing of a plant called Ajo Sacha and we were drinking the Ayahuasca every other night.

One of these days in the beautiful sunny sunshine of the jungle retreat Rak and I just started shooting the shit, and about 20 minutes into the conversation, I decided to pull out my tape, pull out my digital audio recording device and basically record our conversation. So what you're gonna hear is that snapshot of where both of us were about halfway into this retreat that was ten days long.

So I had at this point drank. I think I'd had five or six ceremonies Yeah, five or six ceremonies in the week and a half-ish before that. I had also had kambo and I had done some mushrooms and I had also actually almost died at one point like literally physical death but but that's the story for another time or never, depending on if I choose to release it. But yeah, so I'm pretty deep in this psychedelic mindscape. And Rak is pretty much always deep in this psychedelic mind state, which is one of the things that I really like about this guy's language and structures.

I'm not gonna weigh in as to whether or not what you're gonna hear here is something that I can tell you. to be correct, that everything that I proposed was correct, that everything that Rak proposes that I agree with. It's not really about that. It's more or less just capturing this really intense conversation between me and another person who has some very, very far-out ideas in a unique context. It's something I feel would really be enjoyed by the larger entheogenic community.

Especially given the last episode with Martin Ball, where we talked about Terence McKenna, and we had a really grounded to this reality kind of discussion. And this conversation between Rak and I, where it jumps in is actually right at the point that we start talking about some very eccentric ideas around Terrence McKenna and what he as a thing, as an archetype, may or may not represent in the grander consciousness of... the planet, and that's just where it starts.

So have a listen, enjoy, make your own, make your own decisions about what this is all about, and at the very least, I hope that it inspires you to think about some strange and interesting things, the kind of strange and interesting things that you might not think about unless you're living in the jungle and drinking Ayahuasca every other day.

So, without further ado, here's the conversation between requisite Rak Razam and myself deep in the Amazon jungle.

Rak: Consider Terence McKenna, but there's also like a James Jesso McKenna Rak Razam. It's like on Star Trek where you've got, you know, the captain and the medical officer and the security and you've got the engineer. Like McKenna's not necessarily, and I'm just using his name because he's the latest incarnation.

It's like they said the Christ is actually a role, you know, it's not, it's Jesus Christ. The Christ, I think it translates to exactly, but it's like a role, not just a person; the person's embodied in the role. And I can see there are other roles. You know I was talking to Bruce Dammer. That's where I got the McKenna thing and then I went to another talk [at Burning Man] and it was this guy who studied Nassim Harramein, and Nassim got lost on the playa and didn't do his talk so this guy stepped in and I was like wow, it's like, you know, there's transmissions from master to student. But then you become part of that stream.

But that's not even the right inflection I wanted to give it. It's not as master to student 'cause that's a very identifiable pathway. It's like there's a genetic predisposition or a memetic predisposition to playing roles that are needed within the hive, within the hive mind of our culture, or, let's say, culture within the species maybe, within the human species.

I guess it's like you could say there's a storyteller, right it could be something as stripped back as that, but in the McKenna role everyone's always like, oh you know Terence and there hasn't been another Terence, and there will be another Terence but the stratum of what he played is is a void which must be filled in the culture. And I think that I can see that there there's a multiplicity of Terences out there coming up, you know you could be one, I could be one, as I was fulfilling a certain speaking of the divine or helping shape or map the terra incognita.

James Jesso: Yeah I definitely approached my the development of my career as a public speaker on inspiration from Terence McKenna but my mentality wasn't to be be Terence, it was to look at what it was that he was doing and then say, "Alright, what was it that he was doing and in what vein do I want to do something similar?"

I saw him as a representative of an archetype, a storyteller or messenger, and just somebody who flowed with lyrical complexity and sometimes quite an absurd level of overly intellectualized concepts that were imaginative, playful, and inviting. I just embraced that, and I saw it more as an archetypal role than a person itself.

Rak: Yeah, and each person will have their unique flavour, which will, like light going through a prism middle, give its own unique sort of reflection on that role. And he definitely had an intellectualism, you say, and even more sci-fi stuff.

It's interesting I find as well, because within Ayahuasca– this is an interesting pivot point in that the different entheogens–I'm really grasping towards this understanding of them as it's like this rainbow of entheogens and they're all the different spectrums–and then the people who partake of them they have certain vibrational attunements. You might be more drawn to the mushrooms or people are drawn to Ayahuasca and the thing with Ayahuasca is that it is a healing modality and there's definitely this earth mythology and myth map being being promulgated from Ayahuasca and from the people like myself who have had Ayahuasca.

And even then I'm still remembering Terence and the mushroom and being the voice of the Logos and I actually haven't done that much psilocybin but I'm I resonate with that as my, I guess, more perfect ally because I'm all about language and all about, you know, languagizing the invisible realms and hyperspace and I feel that when I'm in these arenas I'm feeling and my heart is open.

I'm receiving it, and then my very powerful mind is translating it without thought. It's like channeling. It's like channeling, which is the ability to be the mouthpiece for the divine, and you have to feel the divine first. And so it's the unification of heart and mind. It's the soul, I guess.

I interviewed this other woman, Shonagh Home, on the podcast 'Oracle' and she's been working with the mushroom for about five years, taking five dried grams and connecting with her Celtic sort of origins and the whole faith mythology and the fairy folk and as entities and she gets the transmission from the mushroom and she's saying it's like a galactic interpreter or something that she she's been taught by it in she's cross-bonding with it and it can introduce her to terrestrial entities and she can communicate with those or galactic entities.

Where Ayahuasca is predominantly a healing modality I think its role is to polish the lens of the soul and make us ready to receive – and I think the mushroom is something involved with the linguistical cortex and the minds Network and it's almost like it's like a universal mesh network and the spores of the mushrooms traveling through space and landing on planets, then create a base station to receive the whole intergalactic signal, anchor more of it, and talk.

James Jesso: Yeah, well... a lot of what I've been doing in my process of exploring the mushroom has actually been to move away from the concept of entities and recognize that all of these things that we experience as perceivably separate sentient beings, entities, are actually manifestations of our own mind coming into play according to whatever myth maps we enter into the experience.

However, the information itself can be vastly transpersonal and can access realms of awareness that are beyond the personal mythos as well. This is where the myth can expand. But my work with the mushroom has been less about contacting entities and more about contacting the self and recognizing that there is an impassion quality of separateness or strangeness in the inner monologue that appears to be a perceivably separate entity that you can interact with, but I don't see that so much as a mushroom or other galactic beings.

I see it as an element of myself that has come to the surface in relationship to the information of a plant and the information of the plant could be its spirit. Still, ultimately, it's the biological rendering of a as you said, like pheromonal for me, it's like a phytochemical subset of information introduced into a species of biological organism that can render information as experience, such as the human being, and then have that integrated, applied into language so that it can then be shared with others.

My biggest intention has been to create from that information a framework that makes it accessible, almost like Occam's razor mentality of if we can get rid of having to rely on believing that there's a separate entity to receive this information, but still gather the same set of information, still have the same experience to find a model that integrates all expressions the self in relationship to you know, the phytochemical information available within the Ecosphere. Then the question would be: where is the phytochemical information transmission coming from and do you consider the planetary organism to be an entity that has sentience to it?

Rak: Yeah, I definitely feel that the planetary organism is an entity. I'm not sure if it has sentience, and if it does have sentience, what the calibre of its sentience would be, because even my experiences that I would at the time have related to or explained as connecting with the mind of the earth have all been connected.

Filtered through human consciousness, so I don't really know. What I feel is that in any given moment, wherever we are, we're connected to the complete data structure of existence, encoded holographically in what we perceive as a three-dimensional environment, and so the information that we're receiving could come, it comes in a balance of direct from quote-unquote “Source”, so direct from the holographic substrate of information available in the point of consciousness, modulated by what type of information we're able to perceive and render through phytochemical or biological alteration of the operation of the brain and the body, and also from the phytochemical.

Maps or mythos that we have embedded in our psyche, which could range from the mythos of intergalactic mushroom stores or the mythos of all psychotherapy, right? In balance with the relative experience of our environment and whatever information our environment offers, such as the information present on a tree, in a plant, or in a human cultural environment, all being rendered now in this change of physiological operation.

As McKenna said, it would be less shocking to the memetic sort of template to see a green bug-eyed in a metal craft come down then it would be to perceive the reality and truth of the human soul or the exteriorized soul. 

It's almost I feel in some ways, if we apply that to the planetary organism it's like we can receive this transmission from the earth and we can melt into the web of life and recognize that there's a rhythm and a certain type of Gaian intelligence.

We still have the conceit of how we can achieve this level of sentience. How can the thing that made us not be as or more intelligent than the thing it made?

You know, the thing is it's nurturing life and there's all these rhythms in nature as above so below and then we can even see the plants as well giving us healing. But the indigenous people truly believe there are spirits in the plants, so when we say entities, yeah these things are alive have a spirit in them. They are they are autonomous entities. I mean, we're surrounded in this jungle of autonomous entities. The world of plants we give them names and that creates a barrier between true soul sharing of one species with another. Then with things like Ayahuasca we're stripping away our resistance and our cultural acculturation to connect with the spirits in the plants and that's direct entity you know interaction symbiosis.

James Jesso: I see what you're saying there, just as this conversation is a direct entity interaction with you as an entity. And this this comes from my cynicism that I spoke of earlier that was really intensely activated or awakened in me after my second ayahuasca experience This was in November of last year.

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It's a long story, but ultimately it came out and it left me with this this sense of having seen how my own, you know, like for lack of better terminology, Piscian attachment to a dreamer's like romanticism of reality and of life and philosophy, my attachment's there to the concepts of entities and 2012, you know, like ascension into higher consciousness as those things. These things have their own, like McKenna said, you know, something along the lines I'm horribly paraphrasing that it's a misconception to think that reality is real in and of itself.

And so to have these experiences and to look at entities and say, "Yes, really it was this entity, it was this... character I saw it and it was the source of this information, which I think is false. I think that it really was that in the sense of experientially, it was a reality for a person or one to interact with this thing and the information was perceivably coming from that thing but to me I don't see that as being the fullest picture of real that it's actually an expression of self.

And so I have a bit of a cold shoulder when it comes to the sort of romantic over-identification with entities as being ontologically separate things that we experience in these psychedelic states.

Rak: You know what? It's the wave-particle paradox again. Because there is no separation, yet we perceive ourselves as separate beings, if we are entities and we recognize that we're in the jungle, we're in a life force, we're in an ecosystem that is alive and propagating, and you know there's some type of life force in it, there's still some conceit around the direction we're looking.

It's like if we don't see your entities as maybe projections, manifestations from our own being and even if there was an autonomous spiritual entity or physical entity that we could verify is real, the deepest spiritual treasure truth is that that entity is also a facet of us, because what we really are, when I say we, it's like the whole shebang, is that we are an intergalactic gestalt, you know, and it's like in the macro-organism of the human body, it's like we individual humans are like a white blood cell or something getting a certain level of sapience and recognizing the contours of that we're in something.

But it's you know going up, it is alive it's like, well we know we're alive and I've seen some red blood cells, but they're not me you know. And the red blood cells, well I've seen some white blood cells and they're not me, but the real deeper truth is we're all facets and part of an engine of creation. And it's like the real me or the real I is it all. It's basically everything that is manifest in creation.

And even that I is also being created from the eternal it or I, which manifests the Creator that makes the creation. And there's no separation because that energy is coming through from the implicate and it's manifesting in form and it's like God, or whatever label you give it, is growing itself in the matter dimensions and it's a process underway which has some value to God to do it, otherwise it wouldn't be doing it.

And then from my experience, from journeys, I've realized that when the drop rejoins the ocean, the ultimate paradox and crazy thing is that the ocean decides to become a drop at all.

And so it does it and we know nature doesn't necessarily, not just lose any energy, but it expends all its energy like when the plant creates a flower. It's the most precious apex of its whole neurochemical process to create this flowering. It's like the Godhead has created all its energy and all its being is going into creating the manifest world which then flowers and then as you die or as your vibrational soul goes back it's different charge than what it came in with. That charge is in a feedback loop feeding the thing the Creator it's like that; there's also not really it's a semantic distinction between Creator and created because it's it's all one big “I”. It's all one big expression of the divine creative principle. But it's in the play. It's in the play. It's not static. otherwise there's something from nothing. It's because it is.

It is, and there's a binary engine that pushes it forward, but essentially, that binary engine in microcosm is a reflection of the fact that in this whole, it is actually only maybe the white of the Tao and the other thing which is created, honestly, I don't know, it's like the full binary is the Creation and the created, and that's the full wholeness.

James Jesso: I resonate with a lot of what you're saying there, definitely see the process of the divine creative principle being in and of itself, the creation and the creativity and the whole process unfolding, creatively rendering itself over and over again. Some guys like Stan Grof in his work would say that when you ask somebody why would the great divine creative principle do this, it's the same reason why when you feel creative, you just have to draw, right?

You just have to put it out there. But to get back to the original, the original point, that we were both discussing about these entities is that I agree, you know, even on a grander spiritual truth, there, between you and I, there's no division were actually the same, the same being and the same would go with my natural environment, right?

But there's, there are scales of this, like there's the scale of being, say, the divine creative principle. Then there's the scale of coming all the way down to being self-aware human being, not necessarily recognizing it is the divine creative principle interacting with the divine creative principle that is of itself perceivably separate and then creating new things.

I think inside of our own minds when we have these psychedelic experiences and interact with these entities or perceive say in the psychedelic experience specifically less so in the waking in the waking state consciousness that we could apply it to here - we create these Concepts we create these things that are real inside of our minds.

Still, they're also paradoxically a total creation of nothing. We are the same the reason why it's so important for me to embrace and articulate an explanation as to why these things should be be acknowledged as being separate and paradoxically real but of expressions of our own mind is the same way that it's important for you and I to recognize that yes, we're separate entities but we're also one moving organism. I am not the same in this plant but me and the earth are one and if I forget that I'm separate or forget that I'm the same and embrace too much separateness, then it deviates my behavior and I start to act in a way that further disconnects me. And so I don't, I act in a way where I don't recognize you as an expression of myself.

It might be hurtful to you, more so. And this is bringing in more, you know, spiritual wisdom type things of recognize the other in the cell and then we have less conflict and we have less violence. Right? Have less problems with the world. Well, the same would go for the concept of the creation of entities in our mind, that it's okay to say like I really had this real experience, but it was also really an expression of myself.

But when there becomes too much attachment to these entities as being real, it becomes like a metaphysical abstraction from embodying the responsibility of recognizing it and its information as an expression of the self. It's owning, owning, yeah. Recognizing yourself and owning that.

Rak: Yeah, owning is a good way.

James Jesso: So what I would ask then is how far do you go?

Rak: That's a great question. I certainly haven't found the end yet, right?

James Jesso: And I also mean not in the journey, but I mean in the expression of yourself: how far do you define the boundaries of self?

Rak: One of the grokings I got from a recent NN-DMT trip was–I was getting these spirits or these things which were around me on the astral and in the zone you know, visually visually in the DMT realm and in my close proximity. There's were like these little air bubbles about, like, watermelon size or melon size. They're clustering around me and I thought they were external and they're entities to me and in my intuition said, hang on a sec, what if they're me or part of me and this thing I consider a soul it's like an airbag of higher conscious consciousness, right?

And as I go into these realms, this airbag comes out of me and it's an exuding, exudation of my soul. It's allowing me to see a response mechanism of configuration I can take or perhaps a true representation of what we think is a soul of our body. It reminded me of the idea that even our physical bodies are actually a colony or a colony of beings in what we consider the “I”.

We have all the bacteria and all the stomach flora and we have all these things we could consider separate entities that actually make up the whole us. There's ten times more bacterial cells in the human organism than the animal cells. And are they separate from us? They live within us, but are they separate? We can't live without them, we would die without them, right?

So in some very primal sense, we're not just one entity: were a gestalt configuration of this idea that there's a colony, it's a group configuration that makes up what we think of on this matter.

On the macro level of the being as a whole and as above so below, I suspect it's similar on the astral– that you know, that colony of beings might also be a metaphor or a framework to understand how far the boundaries of the individual self really goes… it’s not one individual self it's this patchwork collection of multiple multiplicities that make up the self. Interesting. And are they entities? Interesting. Are we a cluster of entities? I guess the answer there is yes and no.

James Jesso: For me, exploring things like DMT and psychedelics in general, I feel like we're accessing a different level of consciousness wherein we can directly experience in real life and create new mythos that can be integrated into the substrate of our awareness that then plays out in the way that we experience our lives.

And the initial question, which is where do you draw the line, is it's dynamic. You're always drawing the line depending on the point of awareness from which you perceive your environment. So for the most part, I'm drawing the line at I, James Jesso, you know, and the rest, but then periodically there's the exploration of what everything else around me reflects of myself.

That comes into the question of where am I projecting my issues onto the outside world for blame and responsibility. It's a very practical way of looking at it. And then even to a dreamier state of how is it that I am projecting my inner maps and models established through a languaging structure in my psyche to render this experience on a conscious and subconscious level. Where I look around and I'm– you know without knowing it triggered into labeling all these things and organizing them so I could navigate them as I, James Jesso and then going into that and then going into the question of you know, the divine creative principle and what level layer are we, are we separating ourselves?

You know, if we were to, if we were to follow like that, that one really beautiful scene in Waking Life where the kids in the movie theatre are watching the two guys and they talk about having the God moment where they just stare in each other's eyes.

And as they're staring in each other's eyes, there's like, they just like break off in the clouds and stuff, like we could have a moment like that and find a new place to draw the line or I could go into a psychedelic experience like later on we're going to take Ayahuasca and I'm gonna use the information the phytochemical information the quote -unquote spirit of a plant organized around an energetic structure of intention and awareness established in this retreat center to draw a new line invite and inoculate my psyche with a new mythos, partially rendered by the environment, partially rendered by the plant information and the subset plants that he has in Peru, partially rendered by my own intentions to create something else that later I'll integrate and contemplate and move forward on and build not so much draw a new line again but to you know like a decorate the inside and the outside of the line I'm constantly drawing.

Rak: Mmm. Bueno. Bueno. So I wonder then, like, when we take in something like Ayahuasca, I was thinking about this with food because I've been really blessing the food that comes to me each day and really recognizing when I'm empty and when the food comes in me, it becomes me. You know, there's something in Catholicism where they say, you know, I know the lion eats the man or something, you know, and then you become it. You know, you are what you eat, I guess this is a simple version of it. But then when we're just eating food, we're actually, you know, species sort of interfacing with these other beings and they're sustaining us so we can't live without them.

And so it's an ongoing process of reciprocation and interfacing and this idea of a single entity, Rak Razam, is actually going to fuel the journey.

I need to interface with a multiplicity of entities ongoingly and even if we're not finding them as intelligent entities there's essences and when Ayahuasca enters us and does its work we'll let it go and it is an entity in some sense.

I feel it's the same on the astral, that what if there are completely autonomous entities on the astral, but it's like this substratum of the body, like the white blood cells, but what if we're always anchored in a relationship with them and what we consider to be us as souls is this collection of relationships on the astral and the physical. And so to not recognize them as we're thinking, yes, on one level they're projections of what we have within, but we're not looking at it from the directly 180 degrees opposite.

What if it's always that they're looking in here as us looking at seeing them as externalizations of us, what if we're an externalization of them?

James Jesso: Yeah, that's an interesting place to draw the line. These archetypes are the actors, and they all have their role. They know what it is, and they're really good at it. And we're the characters. And the reason we don't know we are the characters is because just like in, just like, Kurt Russell in the movie Vanilla Sky, where he realizes at the end, when Tom Cruise says “oh this is all my lucid dream.” He goes “this can't be your lucid dream because I am real and I have a life and I have a wife and I have a kid.”

Still, actually I'm a dream character and in that dream I perceive myself as being real, but it's only because you perceive me as being real. You're the dreamer and so these characters, they don't recognize we're characters, we just think that we're humans doing our thing. We're actually just the expression of this wonderful dancing divine play of archetypes manifesting in the physical world. So I see I see that intention I think it's really played the stage and we are characters on it… really got it, really Shakespeare.

Rak: Yeah it's interesting now I kind of forgot the initial question I had to pose there but wait I just want to follow this idea of an alpha meme because you know, as macro accumulations of ideas, religions and social structures, but let's say just religions, when they fight and war with each other, it's like they're going to my memes, the top of the food chain, and it's just a language, they're all usually saying there's a God, but it's like their God, not your God, type of thing, but this resistance to other people's ideologies and triggers within ourselves, it's as if somewhere in us we do believe there is an Ur-Meme and a truth, a primeval truth, and we can accept that other people have differing points of view.

And I don't know, but I even still feel that there is, we will have different languages for it, but people who have achieved a certain state of awareness or awakening can accept that there's different interpretations of it that there is an overarching alpha meme of it.

James Jesso: I think so too, actually and I guess I often get presented with a concept of well that's just my personal truth and my personal truth is valid and that's true you know, like a person's personal truth is valid. I don't think any of us our personal truth should be spelt with a capital T, yeah, it's like capital G for God yeah, you know it's it's Truth with a capital T. I like to think that I'm unsure if I could ever know truth with a capital T, but I know that I could never speak it.

Rak: Well I don't know if I'd say I disagree, but I understand what you're saying and there's a level within which it can't be reproduced in words Human culture. But I I feel a sort of sacred duty and it's probably entwined with ego in there somewhere. Still, I feel like my ego is subservient to the anchoring of this truth that I perceive and it's in service of languageizing this truth.

I've learned that yes, it might be difficult in some frequencies of consciousness. Still, in the right frequencies of consciousness in the chain channelling, not the thinking, there can be a clothing or a scaffolding, a clustering of words that can obviously not be it, but can create a environment within which it can be reflected to the greatest potential to hold the idea of it.

The idea of it can be anchored in it words, in this, in the culture as transmissible, transmittable things that can then infect, in a way, another person to interpret it then to make it come alive. It's like the mapacho, as the smoke is blown and you give your heart intent out, it travels down the conduit that this smoke creates. The laser condensation of the wave into the particle and we can anchor the idea of it and that is then transmitted to then come alive in the hearts of others in their own language in their own way to understand it.

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James Jesso: Yeah, I agree with that. I do fully agree with that. and incorporate a lot into my life, so the little statement there that I made is fun and to explore it more. I don't know if I could, I'm not sure if I could ever know the truth, which means that I don't think I could ever know it, however I could probably get closer and closer, just like there's an underlying pattern of cyclical development in nature and in the unfolding of the universe, I think. It’s the same in the evolution of say the Godhead, that's the term you like to use, or the complete energetic structure of existence.

There seems to be an ongoing algorithm underneath it all that seems to influence in the direction that it's going, or at least the way that it's unfolding, the way that it blossoms. And so we can get closer and closer to it, but like the Phi ratio, I don't know if I could ever know it because the next, or the Fibonacci sequence, the next time I feel like I know it, I'll realize that the last time I was just a little too far, you know, a little bit closer, a little bit closer, a little bit closer, but never on the money.

And that's why I feel like I could never fully speak it, is because I could never truly know it. I don't know if I can know it, but I feel like I could grasp it. it and there are times where we could maybe connect in some way to whatever that algorithm is. And it can influence the way we, you know, unconsciously lyricize or articulate something that sparks a life.

I know that I can experience truth. I know that I can experience so what's the difference of this divine algorithm, right? So you radiate over the fear sequence and each time you're getting closer and you think it's the truth. Still, in reality each time it is the truth to the level you can hold and understand with the perceptions of the being you are and it is infinite.

Rak: It's also in the moment and so when you get very deep I have found like I understand that it continues and it's not it's not unchanging. Still, there can be the depths of experience when I've fully felt like I know the truth and I know that that will continue to change as well. I think maybe it's it's as you said that algorithm evolving but there's a certain fruition point in physical organisms this goes back to the whole idea of cosmic consciousness and what William Bucke was mapping.

And he was saying that there's an age level within the human organism, and it's usually around mid-30s. When you're at your peak physically before the degradation starts to come in, and if you've been on the path and preparing to hold more of the signal, you're at the best shot to receive the deepest rocking you can get for the configuration you are at that time to hold that most meaningful truth. And that truth, of course, will continue to evolve and change, but there can be a peak point.

James Jesso: Yeah, I see that. And to play with the metaphor, when you want to have come to fruition, there's still the process of eating and digesting that fruit.

Rak: Exactly. Exactly, yeah. Whether or not how it changes the internal environment of the ecology that is the physical body I render as my point of perspective on the rest of the universe. So yeah, I see that as well and it enters into the whole underlying paradox of this entire conversation which has been, you know, like where do you draw the line?

Because simultaneously I am the all and the entities are real and I'm also just me relative to a you and the entities are manifestations of myself and so no, I could never speak or know the truth, however it's almost like I've got a long way to go and paradoxically I've also already arrived in any given moment.

I'm gonna stop it. So this concludes episode six of @MindRadio. I hope that you enjoyed this conversation between Rak Razam and myself